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Hold Short Line Rwy 23 - Almost Kiss the Line?


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#1 Yodah

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:04 PM

It seems like while taxiing to the Rwy 23, the aircraft required stop (hold short) is practically on the line itself. During practice it is easy to gauge since you keep creeping up on it until the mission arrow disappears.

Im a real world pilot, and not wanting to TOUCH the line I apparently did not creep up enough to trigger the sensor. I did get a "Good Job" msg however. After, I was on my way, having crossed 24, a Failed Msg informed me that I did not stop at 23. My concern is that if I touch the hold short line, it's technically a violation.

Now I have a failure when I should not have. Maybe the stop area threshold needs to be widened a bit.

#2 Revelation

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

You do need to get close to the line. However, you also need to wait until you hear the verbal command, just like in the sim, that you are clear to taxi.

#3 Maverick

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:14 PM

The simple rule that I use in the T-6 is that the runway line should be horizontal level with the bottom of your AOA indicator housing on the left hand side of the cockpit. Its a quick and easy method to make sure you are in the zone each time :)
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#4 Wildman

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

Revelation as always has a good point...I learned to give it 15-20 seconds and got myself into habit of scanninig left,right,left.
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#5 Yodah

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:35 AM

I also as a matter of habit, scan left and right before entering or crossing a runway. The issue here is that you must insure that you are practically on top of the hold short line before it acknowledges a hold short stop. I had to go to an external view to make sure I did that so that I did not "bust" on a runway intrusion.

If you are not, YOU WILL BE FAILED. As we are braking new ground here, I suspect we will continue to "discover" new "tips."

Maverick has a nice tip to line up from within the cockpit.

Revelation just above said it well..." You do need to get close to the line. However, you also need to wait until you hear the verbal command, just like in the sim, that you are clear to taxi."

#6 Revelation

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:58 AM

Also another caveat to take away. In multiplayer you do not get a PASS/FAIL or verbal commands that you are clear to proceed. The reason things are "strict" is to instill proper procedures so when you and I are in a CP multiplayer environment we know what to expect and how to navigate - both on the ground and in the air.

In multiplayer, you may have someone doing touch and goes on a runway you need to cross and if you are not paying attention/following procedures - bad things happen.

#7 Paceman

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:31 AM

As I keep FAILING :-( another follow up question, "as real as it gets" before I want to start taxiing, I need to contatc groud to gain that clearance, yet the COM-PANEL Ground only options direct you to the "Active" which in this case is always rwy 14 instead of rwy23 which is ordered by voice. And than while taxiing towards holding point runway 23 I need to cross the other runway for which I actually need TOWER clearance....

I hope the build in limits are a becoming bit more relalistic that putting my nosewheel ON SPOT of the holdingline .

#8 Revelation

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:46 AM

Paceman - you should get clearance from your "instructor" to cross runway 23. You need to get close to the hold short point and wait until you verbally hear "cleared to cross."

If you haven't heard anything, get a little closer and pause. You should also fly the "sim" to gain experience as to what is expected.

#9 Dang3r

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

In the real world aviation Im approaching the hold line and stop sometimes a few inches more or less closer to the line. Mostly I let spool down the engines and using last speed before I'll brake - but I wont set thrust again to get closer to the line ;)
CP demands an exact frame for action and thats fairly unfair. To set more realistic - and I agree here with Paceman - the area of recognizing the stop before crossing should be slight greater. Even on real pilot training you got your tolerances to stop before crossing or entering any further taxiways or runways.

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#10 StraightShooter

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostPaceman, on 22 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

And than while taxiing towards holding point runway 23 I need to cross the other runway for which I actually need TOWER clearance....


In real life the Tower and Ground controller usually sit near each other, and coordinate aircraft on the ground crossing a runway. Or since RWY 14 is active Ground control may have control of RWY 23 and the Tower controller will ask for permission from Ground controller if he needs to use it, but the Ground controller will still have you hold short. The only time you should have to contact Tower is when your ready for take-off. You should see DFW tower operations with all the runway crossings and you would understand.
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#11 Frederf

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 10:28 PM

I found that the required proximity to the line was very uncomfortable. I might be mistaken. I'll try practice 1-1 again and see if I park at what feels like a comfortable distance if I get the go-ahead. In fact I should try various distances to see where the edge is.

#12 Dang3r

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:49 AM

No, if you are trying to push the limit over the edge, you would blow the check ride and fail it!
You're tasked to stop before crossing 23 and thats visual to speak, when the yellow dotline is lined up under the frame of your cockpit screen, or covered behind the AOA indicator on the left. This point never changes into T-6, so you can mark it as a fixed visual line.
Later on you're told to wait until lining up on 14 and if you stop at the line, the distance is equal to the holding point at 23.

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#13 Frederf

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:40 PM

I believe I said test this in the practice sessions where I wouldn't have consequences for failure (but even if I stopped outside the zone in a checkride I would get no response until I rolled into it). I'm finding the REAR limit, not the FORWARD limit.

#14 1Wolf

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

I'm wondering if you might be over-thinking it. I've never measured up some specific marker on the canopy on how to line up or what not. Holding short means no part of your aircraft should cross the hold short line onto the runway. Usually I just stop near the line and stand on the brakes until the voice tells me "Good Job" and tells me to go ahead and cross the runway. I don't nudge the aircraft up to the line and fine adjust it. I just taxi at about 18 Knots and time the application of my brakes so that the nose of the aircraft will be near the line...then pull the throttle back out and stand on the brakes.

Sometimes it takes a 20 or so seconds for the voice to tell me "Good Job". If you're just crawling up to the hold short line, or doing alot of starting and stopping to try and nudge your way up there...I'm wondering if thats causing the trigger not to be set off.

#15 Dang3r

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:06 PM

1Wolf in former times the frame for hold before crossing was smaller and you have to watch the exact stop point from outside during the sim ride to get proper response at the check ride. As far as I can judge this during my second career, they stretched the frame and the tolerance for the stopping was growing.

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#16 Frederf

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:41 PM

I tested the rear limit, it's really really close like a quarter ship length at most. It's closer than I would want to get in real life. Somewhere in the 1-1.5 ship length would feel more natural with some reasonable buffer. This isn't exactly Blue Angel training.





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